What Is Spiritual Health?

Health and wellness is confusing. There's a new trend every week. Everyone's got an opinion, and half the time, you can't tell what's legit and what's just good marketing. And we get it. We're in it too. Welcome to Dialed In Health. I'm Melissa Goodwin. Every episode, we bring in the people who actually do this work, providers, practitioners, the experts who see clients and patients every day. We ask the questions you'd ask if you were sitting across from them so you can find the right people, make better decisions, and feel confident about what's out there, whether it's peptides, gut health, water quality, ADHD, biohacking, or something you've never heard of, we're covering it.

So let's get into it. Let's get dialed in. Welcome to Dialed In Health. Today, you are in for a treat. We do all kinds of episodes, everything health and wellness related. So we've covered everything from water quality to peptides to physical therapy. And today, we're gonna be talking about a different aspect of health, something called spiritual health. And so I thought I was kind of making this up, but it turns out it's a real thing. It is a real thing. So today I'm joined, I'm very excited. I have Pastor Sara Nelson and also Pastor Brandon Dunham from the Sioux Falls United Methodist Church and the Harrisburg Methodist Church.

So first of all, thank you for being on the show. Thanks for having us. So I love to hear, first of all, before we get into the whole spiritual health thing, tell us a little bit about, maybe Sara, if you wanna start, tell us a little bit about your background. I like to start with a six part question. Who are you? How did you get here? And yes, tell us a little bit about how you got to Sioux Falls United, first United Methodist Church. Absolutely. So I've been here at Sioux Falls first for about six years and I'll be starting my seventh in July. And I've been a United Methodist pastor for about 16 years.

And so I got here because the Bishop appointed me here and it's just been an absolute delight. I'm originally from Lincoln, Nebraska. I moved up here to attend college and ended up following in love with South Dakota. And I met my husband and we stayed and we've raised our kids here. And so it's been just a wonderful place for us. That's amazing. And so Brandon, tell us a little bit about your experience. What brought you from the left side of the state? Yeah, Rapid City. What brought you to Harrisburg? Can you tell us a little bit about your journey and what brought you, maybe tell us why you became a pastor.

Wow, okay. Yeah, so I went to South Dakota State University in Brookings, I lived in South Dakota my whole life. And during that time, I was a part of a church that in a college town sort of owned this idea of being a sending church. They knew that a lot of the people that they had were only gonna be there for four years. And so they really tried to meet people where they were and kind of equip them for next steps. And I found myself visiting with one of the pastors and feeling a call to stay very involved in the church. I didn't know exactly what that looked like, but I was a hospitality management major at SDSU.

I wanted to do something with event coordinating, but then as I was more involved in the church, I was doing things like music and leading small groups. And I was asked if I would have any interest in being one of the interns on staff. And kind of through that, I started exploring a little bit more of what it would look like to continue to work in a church. And there was actually an opportunity at Watertown, First United Methodist Church, which is where Sara was pastoring around that same time. And so I applied for that position, got the opportunity to work under Sara for about two and a half years.

And through that, I had no control. I guess I was sent into a pastoral path that now I'm eight years into three years at Harrisburg. Okay. So is spiritual health something, tell me a little bit about spiritual health. What is it? How do you define it? You wanna start? Sure, yeah. Spiritual health, the way that I would see it would be, ultimately about the condition of your inner life. I would say Jesus talks a lot in the Sermon on the Mount, not just about our behavior, but who it is that we're becoming. And I would consider that to be a lot of the spiritual side of things, not just what it is that we're accomplishing, the pressures that we're experiencing, the productivity that we're trying to pull through on, but just how these things are shaping us and how we are experiencing those things.

And I think one of the, maybe the most challenging, or the great challenges of modern life maybe would be that we've become very good at measuring outward success and not so much inward success. And so I'm kind of excited that we're gonna get to talk about it a little bit. Yeah, Sara, what would you add to that definition? So as United Methodist, one of our kind of our core questions is, how is it with your soul? And when I think of spiritual health, it's how am I in, yes, that interior life, kind of in that indescribable, mysterious soul that we all have. And I think how we explore that or kind of determine like, how are we doing, really relates directly to that question of, what are some of the ways that I'm growing?

Who am I becoming? Am I becoming a kinder person? Am I becoming a more patient person? Am I becoming a more loving person? Almost like the fruits of the spirit. And, or am I struggling? Am I struggling with anger? Am I struggling with bitterness? Am I struggling in my key relationships? And I think all of that is really intertwined with our soul health. And for me, I think our health in general is very intertwined that it's, I think of health from more of a holistic standpoint that when kind of we're at our best and when we're feeling whole, that it's because we've paid attention to our physical health, our emotional health, our mental health and our spiritual health as well.

And so that's one of those key questions for me when I'm kind of checking in is, how is it with my soul? And if there's some unsettledness, which is a part of human life, we all experience that unsettledness, worry, strain, disconnection, I think that helps me kind of explore, okay, I'm needing to pay more attention to this. So how do you know if someone is suffering or if there's spiritual health or their inner life is in turmoil? What might you see or hear besides all the things I've talked to you about? (both laughing) I love our conversations, Melissa. So, I mean, I think sometimes we see, I think sometimes the body tells us things before we're really aware of it even internally.

And so I think sometimes we see that when our soul is unsettled, when we're struggling with our spiritual health, we're not sleeping well, where we're very anxious, where maybe more irritable than normal. And then I think we start to see that play out in our relationships with each other, maybe how we, are we able to focus in a conversation? Are we drawn to put the needs of others before our own needs? And so I think all of that is interrelated that when you start to see maybe those signs that you're not really yourself, that there I think has the potential for that spiritual kind of disequilibrium is at work.

Anything you would add to that and to what you hear or see? Yeah, when I think of my spiritual health when it's at its best, it's not based usually on anything performance driven or a specific act. When I think of spiritual health, I think of just being rooted in God's presence, an awareness being raised on a regular and consistent basis of God's presence around me and his movement in the world and my ability to sort of be grateful for that. Like an expression of gratitude usually happens when I'm feeling most closely connected to God, but then also like wonder of the world around me, like I'm able to actually appreciate the things that otherwise maybe I'd be looking past because my eyes are somewhere else.

I think we, I talk about it a lot in our church about this idea of who it is that we're becoming. And I think a big factor in that is what we give our attention to. And today we're drawn in so many different directions. And I think when our attention is really fragmented, it can really make it difficult for our souls to not sort of feel the same way. One thing we hear on the internet or just even in conversations, it's become more popular to say, I'm spiritual, but not religious. When you hear that, what comes up for you? I think, and of course we're pastors, so we might have a slight bias in this, but for me, what is so helpful about religion is spirituality and religion to me are very intertwined and religion provides that structure of that.

I think there can be something really helpful about being a part of the structure of a religious community and that it helps you, I think it helps us stay accountable to keeping our focus on God and our focus on loving God and our focus on loving one another. But I also think that there's something so beautiful that happens in community that's hard to do as solitary people. And so when I hear people say, well, I'm spiritual, yes, you are, and we all are spiritual. But I think that we have a need to express that spirituality in community. And I think that's where religion plays a really important role, because it provides structure and community so that we're not sort of practicing our face in just all on our own.

And I think that is really, really important because at times I think there can become not a wide distinction between spirituality and self-actualization. And that we want to understand ourselves and who God created us to be. But I think we all have a deeper longing to be a part of something much bigger than ourselves and to find our purpose. And I think to me, I think that's kind of the difference between recognizing that we are created, we're not the creator. And so religion, I think, helps us find our people, find that being a part of something bigger than ourselves. So when people, you know, there's a lot of people that follow online now from their homes.

I've done it plenty of times myself. So, and there is something different about watching it on a computer screen versus being in person. I'm curious, what are your thoughts about the increasing online presence versus being in person? What is the difference? What happens when you're in person? Well, I mean, technology is a gift, right? And so especially around COVID, that's when churches, not just the big churches, but kind of across the board, I think Christians saw an opportunity to start sharing a little bit more of what happens in our walls with the internet and whoever might stumble across things.

But I don't think faith was ever meant to just be consumed content. It was, you talked about practice, like an embodied practice. In the church, we talk a lot about transformation, that a relationship with God doesn't, he meets us where we're at, but he doesn't leave us where we're at. And being able to join alongside with other people, not just in these practices of like sharing communion and prayer and scripture reading, which are all really beautiful things, but also gathering with other people to like share in suffering or just like talk about hardships that we're experiencing or whether it's really something very dramatic or whether it's something that's just like a mundane part of life where a basketball season just ended and like everybody's just kind of tired from traveling, being able to meet with other people and share that experience is, I think, a way that God really transforms us through helping us feel seen.

And I don't know if that's always seen, I don't know if that's always recognized and felt when we're just consuming content online, but. So if you're, you know, there's probably a lot of range of spiritual health, right? So very healthy, very sick, if you will. If someone is spiritually not doing well, how do you heal? What does that process look like? Throwing some curve balls at you, this one isn't on the list. That's all right, it's a great question. I think healing starts, healing can begin in a couple of ways and or be initiated in a couple of ways. I think one of the pieces for healing is to find your community and that it's very difficult, particularly when we've gone through really hard things, then to add isolation and loneliness onto that makes it very, very difficult to heal.

And so I think that's where Christian community is at its best is that you have other people who are checking in with you, who some who have maybe even walked a similar road that you have and that you can encourage one another, you can pray for one another. You know, I think of a recent celebration of life that we had here and just the people of so many different generations who showed up for this grieving family. And I actually had a family member pull me aside afterwards who isn't currently connected to a faith community. And he said, I get it now. I get it why people become involved in a church because of the ways that he saw people show up for his loved one.

So I think healing the community plays a really important role in that. And then I think through community, we grow and we kind of learn how to pray, how to connect with God, how to kind of engage in those spiritual disciplines. It just draws us closer to God. And again, supports us kind of on this journey of life that can have a lot of ups and a lot of downs. And to me, that's really important in healing, no matter what you've been through, is to experience that presence of God with you through it. And also the presence of kind of the family of God with you. I'm curious, for many people, they maybe were turned off from a church or they feel like there's a lot of hypocrisy.

There's all kinds of reasons that people maybe don't attend. But there's also a large group of people that maybe have never really gone to church, so that have no idea what spiritual health looks or feels like. So how do you connect with them? How do you help draw them in and kind of paint that picture for them? Sure. I think something that we all experience when it comes to spirituality is inevitable highs and lows where maybe moments where we feel close, very, very close to God. And maybe it's because of something that we've just experienced, or maybe we feel like we are more isolated or alone, or to your saying that maybe people just never really had an experience.

And I think one of the things that I noticed the most is not necessarily people choosing to not believe in God or something greater in this world, but it's just being so distracted and being pulled in so many different directions that they just don't think about it, or they don't give it a chance. In the Bible, often God speaks in quiet moments, and I don't know about you guys, but I have a two-year-old at home and there's not a lot of quiet moments in our house. And so personally, I did not grow up in church. I was a part of a family who would probably describe themselves as spiritual, but not religious.

And what ended up happening was I was just invited by a friend to go to youth group when I was in high school. And I didn't really know how to describe it, but just being in that space, I felt something that just felt comforting or something about that space felt like home, or I was seen and cared for. And I was just around other people, not that I didn't experience this at home. I had wonderful parents and I have a younger sister and we all love each other very much, but there was just something about being in a group of people that I wasn't related to, where they all cared about me and my own wellbeing, and they cared for me to accomplish things, wondering where I was gonna go to college after I graduated and wondering how they could be praying for me.

That just felt so special. And we've been in our church recently going through the book of John, and as Jesus is recruiting his first disciples, he just tells them to come and see. Like he doesn't sit down and try to explain all the questions that they might have about who he is or why it's important that he would be followed or anything like that. There's just an invitation to walk with him and sort of experience who he is as he is who he is and how he meets them while they're on this journey together. That's probably how I would invite people if they've never had an experience of faith or spirituality sort of into it, is that maybe it feels overly simple, but just this come and see.

Oftentimes, unfortunately, people can sort of get in the way maybe sometimes or assume a little bit too much of the responsibility of swaying people into faith or convincing people. Or scaring people into faith. To tapping into their spirituality. And yet I think time and time again, that the Bible invites us into something so much more simple than that. We'd probably do well to let God be God in a lot of ways. I think one of my favorite verses is also in John that I came that they might have life and life abundant. And to me, that invitation just to come and be seen and known and loved, I stepped away from faith for a time in my own life.

And I kind of unlike Brandon, I was raised in the church. I mean, our church was like a second home to our family. I feel like we spent just as much time there as any other place. And so when I found myself kind of in this wilderness of just really not being connected to any particular faith community, I had moved to a place where I was raised. I had a particular faith community. I had moved to go to college and I still had, I was still very spiritual and definitely still believed. But at some point in time, I just felt really disconnected and from God and from a community. And I found myself just really hungering.

But I also knew that the tradition that I had been raised in didn't fit anymore. And so I think that's part of it too, is that we continue to grow and we change as people. And it always just makes my heart so sad because I do hear it a lot. I'm sure you do too, of people who've been really, really hurt by the church. And I'm always so, so sorry when I hear that because the church should be a place where you can come and you can experience that extravagant love that God has for you, for everyone. And I think sometimes people have to experience that more as judgment and or more as fear or more as shame-based.

And so I guess if I would have any encouragement that if that has been your experience, I would just encourage you to keep trying. And I know that that seems like such a simplistic and not to minimize that experience at all, but God is still at work in the church and the church is far from perfect. But I think there are communities that really are life-giving and accepting and can kind of meet you where you are. I felt like the tradition that I grew up in while I value many things about it didn't encourage questions. Well, I'm a person with questions and sometimes that's a little problematic as a pastor because people experience or kind of expect us to be people with answers.

But I have a lot of questions and I will have a lot of questions until the day that I die. And so I needed to find a community where I could ask questions and wouldn't be judged or kind of feel ashamed by that. And so I think, particularly growing up, I thought that there was kind of this one version of being a follower of Jesus. And what I've discovered is there's a whole range in the Christian tradition. And so sometimes it's a matter of just finding your people. So for those that maybe have gone to a church or they've maybe tried praying on their own and they're like, I'm not hearing anything.

God's not showing up. It's the same. What do you say? I'm sure you've maybe heard this a couple of times. We're like, life is still hard. Yeah, yeah. It's not getting better. It's getting worse. What do you tell them? Do you wanna take that one first? It's an easy one. It's an easy one. What I would say is, especially talking about, you mentioned prayer. Yeah. I often think we put so much pressure on ourselves with prayer specifically. Like we almost make it performative where it's like, I have to have something to say and I have to say it in a specific way. Because what we talk about prayer being is we are speaking to the almighty creator of everything and we can't come with our measly mumbled, I don't know exactly what my thoughts are right now, but I kinda wanted to spend time with you and see.

I think prayer is relationship. Prayer is presence. Prayer is all of those things. And I think sometimes we get in our own way by trying to do it in an overly spiritual way or in an overly perfect way. A lot of times, I mean, my best friends, we don't have to talk about anything specific and yet time with them can be very healing. Just sitting down and whether we're doing something together or we're just doing something in a shared space, just being with another person who I know cares about me and I care about them, we talk all in the church about just the power of presence. And so that to me is the first step to sort of carving out time where you're allowed to just be present and not having a restriction of time where it's, I got 10 minutes and this is where I'm gonna have my revelation from God, but just I'm just gonna go for a walk and maybe I'll hear something, maybe I won't, but I'm just going to, I'm gonna look for God and I'm just going to enjoy what it is that he's given me to look at at the very least.

And that's kind of where I would start. What if you get a bunch of stuff that you don't want in your life? Yes. And you're praying and you're like, it's not working. Yeah, yeah. So I can't take credit for this because I'm not sure even where I heard it, but I once heard someone describe prayer as that you have to get the vinegar out until you can get to the sweetness of prayer. And I think about that sometimes because life can really suck sometimes it can and I hope it's okay that I said that. But I think sometimes prayer is just about honesty. Lord, I am struggling and I'm gonna tell you all about it.

And I need to get it all out until we can get sort of to the sweetness, the oil of it and to kind of almost the healing part of it. And one of the things that I experiment with pretty regularly is actually just talking out loud to God. And-- Do you do this while you're walking or in the mall or how does this happen? I'm just curious. So I have a closet at our house and it's kind of become, I mean, it's my clothes closet, but it's become my prayer closet. And I just talk and that has really helped me, especially to talk out loud, to sort of recognize that we are in a relationship and this is how I talk to you, it's how I talk to you.

And I have this need to get it all out and then to take time just to be quiet and to try to listen. And I think that that's been a real point of growth for me is to carve out that time just for stillness and to listen. And sometimes that's just what it is. It's just kind of that kind of recentering in God's presence. But more often than not, especially I think the more attentive I am to prayer and the more regular I am about it, is that God will give me a word or a phrase and sometimes it's, you know, you're enough Sara, it's gonna be okay. Or hold on, you'll get through this. And it's, I have to say it's never been an audible voice because I know, I mean, we see examples of that in scripture.

I'd love for that to happen. It's never been an audible voice yet, but where it's definitely been where I knew it didn't come from me. And so, but that metaphor of kind of the oil and the vinegar has been really helpful to me because I think sometimes too, like Brandon said, we feel really pressured. Like we have to, like there's a perfect formula when it comes to prayer or there's things that we should say and things that we shouldn't say. And I think that God just knows it all. And so we might as well say it and that there's something really healing and helpful about just kind of laying it all bare before God and then trying as much as it's difficult for me at times just to be quiet and try to listen.

Cause, oh, sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Cause I think there's such a misconception with spirituality in general where, you know, if we put our faith in God, then that means that our lives will then all of a sudden get so much easier. You know, we won't experience any more hardship or struggle or any of those things. And I don't believe that to be true. At least based on my own experience, things haven't gotten easy breezy beautiful, but there's this recognition that regardless of what I am going through, I'm not alone in it. And something that's been comforting for me is whenever I am leading a funeral service, we always, and sometimes it's at the request of the family, but it's always something that I've planned if they don't ask for it, is for us to recite Psalm 23 together because it's one of the most beloved, you know, scripture passages in all of the Bible, but then also one that a lot of people have memorized and I think for good reason.

And within that, there is a line that even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for you are with me. And a word in that is even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, this sort of recognition that the struggles that we're experiencing right now, if I can hold on to the perspective that I wasn't led here to like, this is just the end of me and I'm gonna die in this valley, but that I am walking through this, that God has a purpose for me and maybe it's for me to accomplish something in this season or maybe this is just a product of living in a broken world with other broken people, but I am going to be led through it into a future hope.

You said something interesting. You said about your relationship. This is a relationship. So for people who maybe haven't experienced that, can you characterize that a little bit? What does that mean? And how, like, how is that related to your spiritual health? As we come to think, understand faith, not just from kind of an intellectual perspective, but also from kind of a heart level, is I think of God as the creator. And one of the first things that God did was to create people. And I know we've had lots of conversation of how that's kind of come to be and there's all kinds of theories on creation itself, but I think at the core for me at least is that God is the creator.

And one of the things that God created was people. And from the very beginning, God created us to be in relationship with one another. And that there's a part of us that holds God's image. And so where we, which allows us to have this relationship and this connection, and because we are made in the image of God. And so I think probably for folks that maybe that wasn't kind of maybe something they're familiar with that can seem really foreign, like- Yeah, how do you have a relationship with something that isn't there? Right, right, exactly. But I think we see maybe some parallels with it. They're kind of imperfect metaphors, but I do think we see those parallels of, that you can have a relationship with or feel a connection to your ancestors in a way that you probably didn't know them personally, but you still feel that connectedness at some level.

And so I think for me, it's more of recognizing that because I do believe that God is the creator and I am one of God's creations is that we are intrinsically tied together in a relationship because of that tie that we have as creator and created. As Methodists, we have this story of John Wesley and his Aldersgate experience of crying out to God and him explaining, feeling his heart being strangely warmed. And I know at least for a number of people that grew up in the church, as I've tried to talk to them about real experiences of God, like real feelings of presence, of not just- Like a physical feeling.

Yeah, of not just like I'm saying this out into the world in hopes that it's landing somewhere, but I've genuinely felt the presence of God within me or near me. I feel like that's one of the things that people who grow up in church, being somebody, as I already explained, who came to faith a little bit later, or I had a recognition that God maybe existed and that I believed in him, but having a relationship, that wasn't so much of a thing. I felt growing up that I'd missed out on something because there were other people who had always grown up with this awareness and they were taught Sunday school songs and they were memorizing Bible verses and they had a leg up on me as far as getting to know God.

And yet how I ended up kind of coming to faith, really, was when I was in college, I would like to describe myself as having a heart strangely warmed moment where there was really just a time where as awful as maybe sounds to say, I was just desperate. I tried so hard to make things work for myself try to plan my life, try to make things happen. And I just found myself at a place where I sort of had to look to God and say, "If it happens, it's gotta be because of you "because I don't know what else to do." And I felt like in that moment of true trust, like true, I am going to go for it and I'm either gonna fall flat on my face or you're gonna catch me.

I felt an experience of God that I never felt before. And I actually think that that's something that's really special that I get to hold onto now. And as I said, maybe at one point, I felt like others had a leg up on me, like they knew God more intimately because they'd memorized more Bible verses or they knew more songs or things like that. I think it's through just those real moments of honesty that God's presence just feels closer than ever. And I talk about that also at funerals that I feel like death is one of those moments where we acknowledge our humanity more than any other place. And although that's hard, there's also a beautiful opportunity there because we sort of look to something that we don't understand fully and say, "We're trusting you with this "'cause we don't know how it works, "but gosh, we believe that it does." And you were talking about how we were created.

And I think how we sort of experience God maybe in those moments through other people is we get to receive the love of the people around us and that love, the Bible says that God is love, we're getting to experience the God that's in those other people. And that's really special as well. Quick break, this episode is brought to you by Vitality Growth Labs. If you're a health or wellness practice and you're wondering why your phone isn't ringing in the way it should be, Vitality Growth Labs builds the systems to fix that. Get found, build trust, fill your calendar. AI authority stacking, videos that connect with your clients, real tools, strategy, and execution that results in real revenue.

Visit VitalityGrowthLabs.com or check the provider directory at VitalityGrowthLabs.com slash the directory to find a trusted wellness provider near you. All right, back to the show. So as we think about a healthy spiritual life and how that relates to mental health, what are you seeing from either your congregation or your peers conversations? How does spiritual health and mental health, how are they intertwined or not? I think they're tremendously intertwined. And I think where we see that is particularly around the milestones of life and how we're coping with some of the changes then some of the challenges, some of the joys that we experience at kind of different points in our lives.

And I know we were kind of talking about midlife and I'm in my midlife and I was reading, I don't know, not too long ago that kind of your mid 40s for many people are the most difficult, most stressful time in your life. And for a variety of reasons that a lot of us are still raising kids in our 40s. If you have children, some of us are starting to care for our parents. Some of us have lost our parents. Some of us are entering into that stage with not having children at home, which is a completely different reorientation. A lot of us are changing careers. Sometimes that involves relocation. So it's kind of this time of just tremendous upheaval.

And I think that that's where I think being attentive to both our mental health and spiritual health is really important to help us just navigate a time that is naturally challenging. How does one feed the other or not? Because I would think, when you talk about having a rich inner life and your mental health is in some ways part of your inner life as well, how do you see them as separate or connected? I see them as very connected. So how I see folks who are doing such important work around therapy and really kind of working through some of the challenges, some of the traumas that they've experienced working with a therapist.

I think that's a really, really helpful thing because one of the things that I get a question about on a fairly regular basis is, well, should I see a therapist? I'm a Christian and shouldn't all I need is prayer. And I think there's, God has blessed some really, really gifted therapists and counselors, I think to come alongside us in our faith, to sort of help us to be healthier with our mental health and how we approach challenges, our strategies. I think that can be really, really helpful that they don't take away from faith, they compliment it. And then I think likewise, if we're attentive to our own spiritual health, which I kind of see as really multidimensional, our spiritual health is maintaining, investing in our own relationship with God, it's kind of that vertical relationship, but also the relationships we have with one another, kind of those horizontal relationships of how are we, how are we caring for others?

How are we trying to make the world a better place through maybe our work or through our volunteer? How are we doing something that helps us be concerned outside of ourselves? I think that's really, really important. And Brandon, I said something just a little while back, I think gratitude plays an important role in all of that too. And I mean, there's all kinds of research that says how good it is for us to be intentional about gratitude. Well, to me, gratitude is a spiritual practice and that we've been given the gift of life. And so our responses is to recognize and to be grateful for the people and the experiences that we have, knowing that not all that is easy all the time, but at the same time, we do have a lot to be grateful for when we sort of step back and take the time to recognize it.

Yeah, my wife gives me a hard time because she's seen me do this a couple of times and I don't know why I do it, but if I, like I'll be walking around the house and I might hit my toe on the coffee table or something like that, I will instinctually look up like God is punishing me in that moment, like God, why in the midst of everything else that's going on? Why did you make me? And yet that's, I think maybe that's natural to think that everything that's happening is an orchestration of God, either for our good or to make things hard on us. And yet you talk about gratitude. I mean, we're on a rock flying through space right now.

So the fact that my toe kind of stung for a few seconds really is it's all just perspective, right? It's all our ability to sort of see things within a context and be able to process it, which I think that is the place where a lot of mental health professionals are experts in giving you the ability to process your anxiety or process trauma or something else that you might be going through. But then spirituality, I think, is sort of goes hand in hand with that where all of a sudden the spirituality is the provision on the other side of it, where now that you've gotten the opportunity to process and sort of see things within context of one another, now spirituality is where hope comes in, that it's not always going to be that way.

Or spirituality is where a sense of belonging can come from, where, yes, I've experienced this, but there are also others who have experienced that and I'm not alone in that either. And so I definitely see them hand in hand. So what if someone says, okay, this all sounds good. I think I wanna investigate and maybe get more spiritually healthy. And I've actually seen this many times on Facebook, like I'm looking for a church. I don't want one that does this, this, this, and this. And I wanna make sure it's non-this, non-this, but it does this. How would you advise those folks? And there's usually like 100 comments come to our church.

Like very, you know, everybody is usually, you know, very open about inviting them to theirs. Everyone's going to the best church in town. Of course, yeah, come to mine, you should come with me. So when someone comes out and has like this ask for all of these things, but here's my list, what comes up for you? How do you, what do you do in those moments? Well, I mean, I think we all have a list when we're really being honest. And the list, it could be a variety of things, you know, that we, music often becomes part of that list. Is that we all have different styles of music that resonate with our souls.

And so I hear that sometimes as, you know, I'm looking for a church that has traditional organ music, or I'm looking for a church that has contemporary music and I want guitar and I want drums. I'm looking for a church that has a woman pastor. I'm looking for a church that has a male pastor. I'm looking at you. Strong children's ministry as well. Absolutely, and I think at the end of the day, we're human, we all have a list. But I think what my hope would be is, I think sometimes we can be so focused on the list that we look at church like it's a restaurant. And to me, that isn't always helpful.

And because at a certain point, I think you, what becomes more important is how does this community help you draw closer to God, draw closer to others, and to express your faith in the world. And there's never gonna be a perfect church. And I mean, I say this knowing that other people are gonna see this, but there's even things about the United Methodist Church, and I'm a United Methodist pastor, I would probably love to see be different, that maybe I don't 100% think, oh yeah, that's what I think. There's never gonna be a perfect church that aligns perfectly with your entire list. And so I think it's a matter of finding what those core, core beliefs that are-- Non-negotiables.

Non-negotiables, and then recognizing the church like every other organization is full of human people, and human beings are imperfect and messy. And kind of getting beyond kind of the restaurant of looking for kind of those right entrees to, is this a community that I can be myself in? Is this a community that I can invest in? Is this a community that helps me grow as a spiritual person and as a person in general? I think those pieces are really important because we all do have a list, and we all do have non-negotiables, and I think that's very, very valid. But I also think sometimes we can be hoping that we're gonna find the perfect place or the perfect people, and people aren't perfect, and no community is perfect.

But if you can find that place where you really feel like you found a place to belong and to grow, that's what matters. And communities, just like people, evolve, and they change and they transform depending on who's a part of it. And so I think about some of the churches that I've served over the years that we weren't the same people when we first started on our journey together, then when transitions happened. And so thank goodness that we kept growing, and I don't think you really start belonging anywhere until you figure out what it is that you can bring to it, right? Until you find out your place within it all.

Otherwise, it's just a place where you go. We talked earlier about consuming content. And to really belong somewhere is to have a place where you get to participate in what's happening. And I think oftentimes what I've noticed when people sort of bring a list or they talk about their list, people don't usually walk into church, but anyways. It has happened. We have had a meeting set up after church to talk about some things. But what often is, what are the things that you are doing that I am looking for to feed me? And although that is a valuable thing, you wanna be fed or you wanna get a certain thing out of church, to be a part of it is really what we're looking for.

In some churches, they're not willing to be flexible, this is who we are, this is what we do, this is who's in charge of it. And those are, I think, difficult places to really belong. You can attend for a while, but to really feel like I am a significant part of this greater group of people is challenging. And what I would encourage people to, and I try to, as a pastor, we're always trying to lead people into maybe a new expression of their faith or into new ways that we can reach the community and meet some sort of need. In doing so, we're inviting people to step into something that the church isn't actually already doing.

And that would be my encouragement to anybody who's maybe they're looking for a church is, if you ever walk into a space and they aren't doing anything regarding food insecurity or something like that, and that's something you're very passionate about, I would maybe ask questions if that's something that the church would be willing to do as you may be leading that or joining others in leading that charge. Because I know if somebody walked into our church and said, "I am really passionate about this, and it doesn't really seem like you're doing anything in that arena right now," I wouldn't be, I wouldn't put my foot down and be like, "Well, for good reason." I would say, "It's just because we haven't had you here.

And if you would love to do that, then let's figure out how the rest of us can support you in doing that thing." That's great. You know, when you're physically sick, you can see the signs of it. Like you might be, maybe you're overweight, maybe your blood panels are bad, and you start to maybe work out a little bit, you can see those changes very obviously in the mirror, or you can see it in your test results. When you're spiritually sick, maybe that may or may not be as obvious. So what is a very healthy, strong, spiritual health, person look like or sound like? I think when we're spiritually healthy, we embody joy.

And joy is different than happiness. That we can have a great day at work, or our favorite team can win, and we can be happy about that. And happiness is really important. Don't get me wrong, happiness is very important. But I think joy is deeper, is that it's this deeper, more consistent emotion that kind of, regardless of what's happening externally in my world, it can't take away my joy. My joy for being alive, the joy that I find in relationships, the joy that I experience just simply through having the gift of life. And so I think for me, one of those indicators of spiritual health is joy.

And which I think is very, I think it is, I think it's really possible, even when maybe our exterior circumstances are really challenging. I think along those same line piece, and a lot of people struggle with anxiety. I struggle with anxiety. And I think sometimes we think, "Oh my gosh, if we have anxiety, then that means we don't have peace." Again, I think peace is deeper than that. For me, what peace looks like is that, I know if kind of things are falling apart around me, that I'm not alone and God is still holding me. And it doesn't mean that it's gonna be an easy solution. It's not gonna be rainbows and sunshine all the time.

But that I am loved, and there's nothing that can take that away because I am held in God's presence. And so for me, it's more than that, but I think some of those key indicators of when we really are at our best in our spiritual health, it's that experience of joy. And that experience of peace. Which by that takes away the, that maybe people often think of spiritual health as like, "I'm just crushing it." Everything's going well, or as far as, I haven't missed a Sunday in so long, and I've read my daily Bible verse now for four weeks in a row, and I'm just like spiritually, I'm on fire. And so much more than any kind of perfection.

It's just being rooted, I believe, in the presence of God in a way that is just gradually transforming me and how I'm experiencing the world around me. Faith has been described, I don't remember who said it, but just a long journey in the same direction. And having a perspective of it being a long journey, I think takes a lot of pressure off and allows you to try to enjoy it. If there is somebody watching today that is unsure, if they're spiritually healthy or not, or if they're curious about taking the next step, what's something that you would want to leave them with? I'm curious, I don't know, this might be interesting.

What would you, what kind of a seed would you like to plant? Oh, well, if I could then, I said it earlier, but just come and see. Just, I don't know if there is any way that I could, any formation of words that I could put together that maybe I could, but I know that I was transformed not necessarily through another person's word, but just by an experience of God's presence. And so I would just invite them to come and see. I'd really encourage folks to seek a faith community. I think that God works really powerfully through community and largely because that's how I've experienced it. And seeing God speak through other people and it's made such a difference in my own life personally.

And I've just seen it make such a difference in the lives of so many people around me. I look at like our daughter, she's really active in the church. And of course you would think, yeah, she's the pastor's daughter. Of course she's gonna be active in the church, but sometimes there's pressure being related to the pastor or assumptions that people make. And it was so neat this past Sunday, she's built just some really, really amazing relationships with some youth leaders. And they baptized their little one on Sunday and she could not wait to come to church so that she could watch their child be baptized and to be a part of that community.

And so I think we all have this hunger inside. I believe we all have kind of this God shaped hole that only God can fill. But part of the way that God, I think the way that God often works the most is actually through other people and that we experience God's love through other people. We experience kindness through other people. We experience God's presence through other people. And so I would just encourage people to try, you know, try to find that community where you feel seen. And scripture talks a lot about that the church is at its best when we can be the body of Christ where we accept one another and we pray for one another, we encourage one another and there's all these one anothering statements in scripture.

And to me, that's what I think can help us in our own spiritual health to become the people that God's created us to be is through finding that community where we can be ourselves and we can also grow. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So you are online. You do have a little bit of an online community or a large one. Why don't you let us know for, we'll make sure to put it in the description on YouTube as well, but tell us where people can find you. Sure. I'm curious. And I'll ask each of you to do that, like website or other ways they can engage with you. Absolutely. So I serve at First United Methodist Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and you can worship with us via live stream at sfumc.org.

And we do have three worship services on Sunday mornings, 8.30, 9.45, and at the 11.01. And it's just, and often I think it's a great way to kind of get to know a community is to worship online at first. And then eventually to take that big next step to come in person and to experience community in the flesh. And so anyone would be welcome, we'd love to have. Love that. All right, Brandon, tell us. I agree with that. I feel like I've had a number of people speak to me over the last few years that said that they joined us online for a few weeks before they came. And even before I moved to Harrisburg, one of the things that I did was I just checked out the live stream to sort of, see if I could maybe recognize or notice some faces that I would then recognize when I showed up, and also just sort of feel out what the...

What the vibe is. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm at Harrisburg United Methodist Church, just south of Sioux Falls. We're actually one of four or five faith communities in Harrisburg. And so that's one of the big things that we've been focusing on is trying to connect a community that otherwise drives to Sioux Falls for so many things. And so, Harrisburg, UMC.com, we're at 930 and it is a blended service. And so we've really tried our best to not only, you know, lean in a contemporary fashion because to be totally honest, that's actually kind of more my background and something that I love very much, but also still hold on to these traditional elements that really have been grounding for the denomination and our congregational members for years and years.

And try to teach one another along the way, but also, you know, just kind of celebrate the history. And so 930 AM, we worship and yeah, what door's open for anybody, so. And where do we find you online? HarrisburgUMC.com. HarrisburgUMC.com. Okay, so if you're watching on YouTube, we'll make sure to put those links in the description. Thank you so much for the conversation today. I had so many... Thank you. I didn't get through all of them, but I realize you may have a couple of things to do today other than just sit and chat with me. But I appreciate the opportunity. This was a little bit self-serving for me too, because I was like, I have all these questions that I want to ask, and I know other people have them too.

So thank you so much for the time today. Thank you. We really appreciate it, Melissa. Thank you. Hey, that's our show. If someone came to mind while you were listening to this, if you thought, hey, my sister needs to hear this, or I should send this to my mom, or my buddy would get a lot out of this, please share it with them. Just hit the share button and send it their way. You never know what one conversation, one episode, or one piece of information can do for someone who's been looking for answers. And if you haven't subscribed yet, please do it now. It takes two seconds, it's free, and it means you won't miss an episode.

We've got incredible stuff coming up, and I don't want you to miss any of it. And if you're a health or wellness provider and you want to be on the show, we'd love to hear from you. There's a link in the show notes to get in touch. We're always looking for people doing interesting work who want to share what they know. And one last thing, I get asked all the time about the products and brands I actually use. So I've put together a list of sponsors and favorite products that have worked for me and my family. If you're curious, that link is in the show notes too. Thank you for being here, and I really mean that.

I'm Melissa Goodwin, the line is open. See you next time.