You Can't Yoga Your Way Out of Burnout (Do This Instead)

[0:00] I think the easiest way to talk about it as burnout is unmanaged chronic stress. The American Medical Association, their description is it's a stress reaction and it causes emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, so you kind of get a little bit more cynical about your work and with your coworkers and then decreased personal achievement. Health and wellness is confusing. There's a new trend every week. Everyone's got an opinion and it's hard to tell what's real versus what's good marketing. This is Dialed In Health and I'm your

[0:30] host, Melissa Goodwin. Every episode we sit down with real providers doing the work and ask them the questions you would ask if you were sitting in this chair. Let's get dialed in. Welcome to Dialed In Health. Today we are going to be talking about something that many of you, I know I have experienced it. Marla is going to share her story a little bit, but if you've ever been close to or experienced burnout, you're going to want to listen up because today we're going to be talking all about burnout and emotional intelligence.

[1:03] A lot of the new AI companies and leaders are talking about emotional intelligence, so this one's going to be a good one. I'm so excited to have you here, Marla. Marla Dziedzic, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Absolutely. Marla, you have over 25 years experience learning and development across healthcare, various industries. In the last few years, you've been focusing specifically on wellbeing and emotional intelligence. Tell us a little bit about your journey, where you started, and

[1:33] how you came to be working in this specific space. Yes. All right. Well, I won't bore you with my whole life story, but I grew up in Wall Lake, Iowa, which is a small town. My parents did not have a college education, but my dad loved learning and development, so did my mom. They would get us these little books called Bits and Pieces. They're still in publication today. They would underline little quotes in there, and then they'd highlight and put our initials. It was five siblings. I remember very

[2:04] distinctly, my dad would say this. He said this up into my adult years. "Marla, you can't learn while you're talking." Never said that to my brothers. Anyway, I think that's where my passion for learning and development started. I went to Creighton. I'm a marketing and management. I got a degree there. Then I was in sales for 10 years and became sales manager, and I adopted a sales training program. I think that's where my passion for training started. The light bulb moment started.

[2:34] I started to learn. Then I spent some years staying home with my kids, which was one of the most rewarding careers I could ever have. Also the most challenging. That's a lot of work. Really, the last 15 years, I've been in the healthcare space. I've worked in learning and development. The last four and a half years, I've been in well-being. Also, I serve on a board, Bank Midwest. The financial side, that connects me back to my roots.

[3:06] That's just a little bit about me. Tell me in the healthcare space. Did you work mostly with physicians or other practice providers? Tell us a little bit about who you typically would work with. I primarily worked with physicians and APPs in the work that I did in a well-being program and tried to help them with their well-being, just keeping them well. APP, for those that maybe don't know what that language... In healthcare, we have a lot of terms. Yes, yes.

[3:36] Advanced practice providers. Nurse practitioners, physicians assistants. Sure, all of those types. A lot of very high performers. Absolutely. We were talking a little earlier. I know for me, and I'm not saying that I'm a physician or an APP, but I know I'm a very driven person and I will literally get sick. I will go, go, go because in the 80s, it was like you just keep pushing through. It's all about grit and resilience and getting back up.

[4:08] Tell me what's wrong with that. So many things, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Obviously, being a high performer, there's a lot of great things that come out of being a high performer. What's wrong with it is when you get to the point of emotional exhaustion, you're eventually going to start depersonalizing from your work and not finding the value in the work that you do. That just zaps your joy, but then it also can impact your health. There's all kinds of health issues that are related to burnout,

[4:39] high blood pressure, heart disease, but it also impacts your performance. Even though you think you're a high performer, it impacts. There's greater risk for errors. You're not being near as efficient. Sometimes you become cynical with your team. And so we feel like we're doing our very best, but it really does have the negative consequences. So how do you, because you're also a high performer, what has been your experience in this space? What made you really interested in this in burnout and emotional intelligence?

[5:10] Yeah, so probably not the most glowing story of myself, but back in 2019, I was working in talent and development space. And honestly, we were going through a lot of reorganization, which all companies do. A little downsizing, not backfilling positions. I found myself more stressed than normal. I'd also lost my mom about six months prior to that. Very suddenly I had a son in college, other just things in life going on. And I kind of thrive on stress.

[5:42] I like to be busy when I'm not busy. I get a little anxious like, OK, I got to do things. But this was different. I started to become more cynical. I was emotionally exhausted. I just couldn't find joy in my work. And I went to my doctor. I knew she was going to say it's stress. And she did. But she said, your blood pressure is through the roof. And I'd kind of always joke that I have a little blood pressure. I can salt my-- I can have a margarita and salt my chips. But she's like, it's dangerously high.

[6:14] Oh, wow. And so I stepped back and I really looked at what was going on. And I had lost some close friends. And I'm like, I need to do something. This was definitely burnout. I needed to look at what was going wrong. And I think the best way to describe it was I just didn't feel like myself. I didn't-- I wasn't showing up at home how I wanted to be or at work. Yeah. So tell us what burnout actually is. Can you explain or define that for us? Yeah. I think the easiest way to talk about it as burnout is unmanaged chronic stress.

[6:45] The American Medical Association, they-- their description is it's a stress reaction and it causes emotional exhaustion, depersonalization. So you kind of get a little bit more cynical about your work and with your coworkers and then decreased personal achievement. I think the best way to describe it though is an analogy. I never liked the word burnout when I first started working in this industry. But if you think of a candle and you think of it's lit, it's flickering, it's-- you get out of bed, you're excited,

[7:17] you're giving light to others, eventually burnout the way a candle gets snuffed, that's kind of how burnout is. You start to feel less and less joy. You maybe aren't having as much fun at work. You're maybe not communicating as much and your candle just gets dimmed. OK. Because usually burnout is not caused by just being too tired or having too much in your plate. It's just that you're not managing the stress efficiently and your candle gets burned out. So it sounds a little

[7:48] bit like depression though. So how do you tell if it's burnout or depression? Yes. I think that's a great question. And honestly, whoever-- whenever I worked with somebody, I-- that's the number one thing I would say is have you talk to your primary care provider because it is very important to identify whether it is burnout or depression. They carry some similar symptoms. I mean, emotional exhaustion, sometimes there's isolation, but they come from two different things.

[8:18] To burnout is just comes from unmanaged stress where depression can come from a stress incident, but it can also come from an unidentified stressor. And it's very important to identify if it is depression so you can get treated effectively. So for some of us that are maybe a little bit cynical anyway, how can you tell-- like what are some of the things that you have seen over the years? Is it colleagues that come and say like, "I think they're getting burned out"?

[8:48] What are some of the signs that either a loved one, a colleague, or even yourself might be like, "Hmm, I might need to examine this a little bit more"? What are some of the signs of burnout? Yeah, I think some colleagues would probably recognize that you're not shutting work off or you're just, you know, go, go, go, go and never, you know, truly shutting work off. I think my husband would have said to me, you know, I would get home and I would eat supper quickly. I would go back on my computer and then I'd be awake and not be able to sleep.

[9:20] I do think that the-- I noticed in myself even just the way I was communicating. I was not near as patient. It was more snappy. But I do think that emotional exhaustion, if you, you know, would ask a colleague, they'd probably start to see you just looking drained and feeling drained. Your cup is empty. Yeah. Well, and some careers just demand so much of you. You know, there's-- whether you're an entrepreneur or a health care provider or a young attorney,

[9:50] like there's almost this period of just, I don't want to say hazing, but like you just put in your time and you're supposed to just work through it. What are you-- you know, there's fatigue in that. How do you help people who are, you know, maybe young and are still facing that kind of challenge? Yeah, I think the biggest thing is to identify what are your biggest obstacles right now. Okay. And, you know, come up with a few strategies to help you. One thing I saw a lot is people could not

[10:21] shut work off, that work-life transition. You know, I feel like I'm not effective at home with my kids or with my family and I feel like I'm at work. I'm, you know, I'm thinking about my family. Teaching people how to come up with a few strategies to be able to separate the two, having a work-home transition plan, but they don't need to be big sweeping strategies. They can be small things like taking some deep breathing, taking micro breaks throughout the day, some pauses.

[10:52] And so sometimes I think we think, well, we have to have this big laundry list of how to change things. Burnout often comes from inefficient practices. You're just not using technology, you know, adequately. I mean, with AI, there's a lot of great tools that can help with burnout, help you become more efficient. So it's really identifying where's your biggest pain point and then try to come up with a few strategies that can help. Yeah. So compassion fatigue. This is a search that's been up over 125% just this year.

[11:25] How is that different from burnout? Yeah. What is compassion fatigue, first of all? Right, right. Compassion fatigue is when we, as caregivers, are very high in empathy and it's a very rewarding career. However, compassion fatigue is when you start to absorb the emotional trauma or the pain that others are going through. We saw a lot of it during COVID. And so that's you just start to also, you know, you take all of that on yourself and have a hard time separating it.

[11:56] And then eventually it causes emotional exhaustion. It causes you to depersonalize. So it's different than burnout. People that experience burnout may have some compassion fatigue, but not everybody that has compassion fatigue is completely burned out. It could be a one-time situation at work that you're just really feeling it and maybe need to talk to somebody about that compassion fatigue or that incident, that trauma. Or it can be for years and years and years of caring for very sick patients.

[12:27] Yeah, someone with chronic illness that you're just, yeah, exhausted. So what are some of the signs, you know, the ones that you would see, you'd mentioned, you know, we talked a little bit about when you're early in your career and kind of putting in your putting in your work. What are some of the signs that you would see when you would maybe interact with a physician or an advanced practice provider? What are some of the things that you would see in them over and over again, the common things? Yeah, I think that emotional exhaustion

[12:57] is why a lot of people come. Also, just not being able to focus. I'm not getting my work done. I just can't shut things off. My brain's running 100 miles an hour. I'm just not finding fulfillment in this career anymore. I went into this to help patients. I love caring for people, but I'm just not feeling that empathy like I used to. So just at home, people will start to recognize that you're not yourself, but then you have the physical symptoms.

[13:27] I think a lot of people will enter the door finally when they physically start to think that I can't sleep, I can't eat, I'm developing bad habits, those sorts of things. So people talk about like the body keeping the score. What shows up in your body? What physically might you feel if you are burnt out? Yeah, we'll talk about emotional intelligence later, but a lot of it is just that emotions that you're maybe reacting a little bit

[13:57] more quickly or not effectively will show up. Maybe you're not communicating as you used to or some other things that just people sometimes get heart palpitations. I know that I did. People will not be able to focus as much. They feel like they have brain fog or they don't have clarity around things. So your body starts to send signals. You just get run down. Sometimes your hair falls out, just lots of different physical symptoms. Easier said than done sometimes when

[14:29] you've got some that says, "I'm fine, I'm fine, I've got it." But I would imagine that there's probably a lot of, you've probably worked with a lot of physicians over the years and said, "I've got it. I got this. Don't worry about it." Then how do you help them realize that they might need a little bit of help? I think leaders can play a really big part in that if you're closest to them. I always tell leaders to check in on people, but not just, "Hey, how you doing?" And they're like, "Oh, fine." Try to read them and say, "You're saying

[14:59] you're fine, but I'm noticing that you look like you're just really run down or you seem a little bit more irritable. Help me understand, is there anything I can do for you? Can I provide you any resources?" But don't just ask, "How are you doing?" And if they say, "Fine," because we all do that. Or, "I hate the word busy. Oh, I'm so busy." What can I help with? Help me understand, is there something I can help with a resource you need and really do some intentional check-ins with people? I think leaders play a huge part, but

[15:31] just digging deeper, asking a few deeper questions can be helpful. Yeah. When you work with leaders, how do you teach them the skills to be able to navigate burnout? What are the things that you tell them to do? Or how do you help them equip themselves so that they're better with this? Yeah. Well, it's interesting. The Workforce Institute just had a study that 69% of employees look to their leader,

[16:02] same as their partner, but look to their leader for their mental health. More than their doctor or their therapist. Interesting. So leaders really, they don't have to fix the burnout. Again, it's really about asking the right questions and making sure that your teams have the resources they need. Because one of the big areas of burnout is people have an inefficient practice. And so they can help them. Like, you know, what are your hurdles? What are your obstacles? And if you can help them identify what are some of the obstacles,

[16:33] you can help them give them the resources they need. The Stanford Wellness Model, they look at three things. A culture of well-being. So that's leaders demonstrating their own well-being. That's a huge thing. If a leader can show their teams that they're working on their own well-being, but oftentimes we're our worst critics because, again, you know, we got to power through it. The second thing is efficiency of practice. What are the things that are slowing down our work? What are the administrative burdens that

[17:03] maybe we can either stop doing or try to improve on? And then the last thing is personal resilience. So a leader can do all they want. You know, they can try to help. But at the end of the day, people have to be engaged and want the help as well. So they have to take that personal accountability, too. It's interesting that you say that about leaders because, and the first part about them taking care of their own. I vastly underestimated what you bring when you're a leader, what you're exemplifying to your team.

[17:35] Like you just living by example teaches them, you know, how they look to you and follow what you do. And it was actually a few years ago when I was talking with my partner and I was like, I want to be more like that person. And that's where I was like, oh, wow, they're kind of just leading by example, just being the person that other people can hopefully look to to want to be more like. Right. So just by being healthy yourself and not being burnt out, does this wonders for your team, I would imagine. Oh, 100%.

[18:05] I had a leader tell me that they find peace and contentment in working on Saturday mornings. And they would send all their emails on Saturday because it worked for them. Their kids were older. So they weren't going to soccer games. So they would be sending out all these emails to their team. And she found out that their team was just stressed out on Mondays. And she realized that even though that was good for her, you know, that worked for her. She was stressing her team out. So she decided to schedule all her emails to go out on Mondays.

[18:36] So her team wouldn't get them over the weekend, even though she had told them, you don't need to respond if I email you over the weekend. And so it is really just about modeling behavior. Also, one of the leaders of the physician leaders that I work with, she decided she was going to set a personal policy, we call it or a boundary, that she wasn't going to answer her text messages after seven. The great thing though, is she told the rest of the team that so we could help support her. Yeah, because sometimes you can set a boundary or a personal policy.

[19:07] But if you don't tell anybody about it, they can't support you. So they're going to continue to send you messages. And so, as leaders, we just need to be able to set some policies and then ask other people to help us in that support. Yeah, that's a great example. So what do you do when you feel like you might be experiencing, I know I'm burnt out, right? You know, you're an entrepreneur, attorney, physician, and there's obviously all these different, those are not the only careers

[19:38] obviously that you get burnt out in, you can get burnt out in anything. What is an assessment that I should do or I can do to kind of check in with myself? And kind of gauge if I might be getting close to that line. Yeah, if you're in healthcare, there is something called the Mini Z assessment. It's a free online tool. It has some specific healthcare questions. And that's on the American Medical Association website. And so you can find that out there. But if you're not, if you're in another industry, just asking

[20:09] yourself some questions. Am I exhausted when I get up after I've had a restful night of sleep? Am I being more cynical at work? Am I finding joy in my work and fulfillment? Am I shutting work off? Or do I keep, you know, having work go through my mind day in day out? Am I setting unrealistic expectations on myself? So kind of having a few checkpoints. But then also try to find a mentor or a coach or someone who can help you look from a non,

[20:40] you know, an unbiased standpoint and ask you some of those same questions can be helpful. So you're a coach, right? Yes. How do people find, because like I see life coaches, there's executive coaches, how do people go about finding mentors or coaches? I find that just that to be so daunting, because there's just, it's sort of like counselors. How do you find the right one? Right, right. Well, what I always do is I offer a discovery call, a 15 minute call, and just kind of talk through and get to know people, because I

[21:11] do think that's really important, whether it's a coach or a coach, that you connect with somebody, and you feel like you could talk to that person, open up, but a coach really is a strategic partner. So I would look for somebody that, you know, if you have a certain area in your life, if it's, if you're looking for physical health, find a coach that's going to help with that. If you are struggling with well being, shutting things off, try to find someone who has worked with other individuals. I'm a master certified physician, a coach, but that's also,

[21:43] I've learned about well being in that. So I work with executives, I work with really anybody that wants to set goals, whether it's improvement in your work, but then also I do focus a lot on well being and that, you know, really that burnout space as well. So what's wrong with just going to get a massage or just like taking, like someone says, just go take a vacation, right? Go to the, you know, go to the beach for a week or something. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But the problem with it is, is it's not

[22:15] going to fix the ultimate problem. So you can go away to Aruba for a week, but if you come back to the same inefficient practice or the same struggles, it's not going to be any, it's not going to be different. So I always recommend, you know, really do take some of those self, do some of those self-care, but you can't yoga your way out of burnout. You have to, you know, really identify what are those, you know, cogs in my wheel, the pebbles that are causing me not to be able to shut off work or to get out of work on time.

[22:47] Sometimes it's we're our own worst enemy. Maybe we're a perfectionist and we look through, you know, our work over and over and over, you know, or maybe we just, you know, we have really inefficient practices. We haven't really kept up with technology. So trying to identify what the problem is and then going from there. But, you know, a vacation does help. I will say people that are high performers do have a hard time taking vacation. Yeah. So again, I think scheduling it, get it on your calendar, take vacation,

[23:19] because we need that time to rest and really come back in a better space. But you also have to become more efficient and look at what are the obstacles. So you mentioned something about like perfectionism. It made me think about, you know, there's there's probably a line of I'm overperforming because I have this like childhood wound that I need to overperform versus I'm overperforming because like I need to pay for my kids college and I need to figure out how to. So how do you help people

[23:51] untangle maybe that I need a therapist versus I need a coach? How do you help work through? Because some of that might be coaching. Some of that might be therapy. Like where is the line? It's really confusing. Yeah, yeah, I think I think if you have gone through a coaching program, they do a really good job of identifying what is a coach and what is a therapist. A coach really is about helping someone move forward, setting some specific strategies. Therapy really is about digging into maybe some of those childhood wounds or traumas or

[24:21] maybe something specifically going on now that's a little deeper. And if you're a trained coach, you're going to identify it and really recommend. As you know, I do, I recommend that everybody, very first question I ever ask is, have you talked to your primary care provider? Because it could be an underlying condition and somebody might need some therapy. I have people that are doing therapy and coaching at the same time. And so if they're too different, you're looking at two different ways about healing.

[24:52] In coaching, it's more strategic. And these are some goals and that forward thinking and therapy is doing more of a deeper healing through self-reflection. They both use self-reflection, but just different strategies. And they're trained differently. Coaches, obviously therapists have a completely different training. It almost sounds like a why am I doing this versus what am I doing a little bit? Like, you know, if I might be doing a therapist might be more like digging into why I have to overperform for everything. And it's not when you talk

[25:22] about scheduling, you're talking about like you're not being strategic or you're not being efficient in how you're working. It sounds a little bit like a why versus a what. Yeah. Maybe that might be too reductive. But tell me a little bit about that whole, what are some of the small things that really have moved the needle for people in terms of alleviating burnout? What are some of the little things they can do from it? You mentioned that the text or scheduling your emails to go out on Monday instead.

[25:54] She's not burning out her team. What are some of those efficiency things that you've seen that have really helped from a burnout perspective? Yeah. I think sometimes identifying where we're maybe wasting time, you know, when talking about the perfectionism in healthcare, sometimes with the administrative burdens in healthcare documentation, that can be a burden. But teaching people of you don't have to have A plus documentation, you want to have

[26:25] proper documentation. So you have continuum of care, you're covering risk, those sorts of things, but you don't need to spend 25 minutes on every single chart. So identifying where are we being inefficient? Other industries, maybe people are spending way too much time in meetings. How are you your team? How are you doing meetings? Is there a way for you to not go to every single meeting?

[26:56] I always tell people to really think about some simplification questions. What can I delegate? What do I need to let go of? And so I think as leaders and high performers too, it's hard to give things up, but we have to reframe it in our brain. Delegation is not dumping. It's actually developing people that report to you. So what can you delegate? Just so some of those things through talking to people, you start to uncover little things that they're doing and just question them,

[27:26] well, why do you feel you need to do that? Is there someone else who could do that? And so a lot of times we forget about our teams and how they want to grow. And so I think that's one of the things that I kind of try to help people think through when they're thinking of burnout and getting better. I work with a lot of business owners and I think one of the things that I hear often is I'm doing videos at night. I'm making content at night when I'm at my kids' games, but when I try to delegate, it

[27:58] doesn't get done right. Do you hear things like that often? And what I would ask them back is, well, what does done right look like? Okay. Because sometimes, you know, again, that's a certain standard of are we sometimes when we're so close to it, we don't really see how much maybe we're wasting time. I've done the same thing. Like I've been, you know, get ready to do a PowerPoint and I'll go over and over and over. And what if I miss once, you know, one slide or one

[28:29] people aren't going to know. So it's our we're our own we're our own. So we have to kind of just step back and say, what, what do you mean by that? What is, you know, or I'll hear people say, well, I feel bad about, you know, why do you feel bad? You know, what, where's that coming from? So yeah. So how much of this is on the individual? Because sometimes, you know, I we're joking about how oftentimes, especially in in today's world, you're being asked to do more, you know, a person leaves and they you get asked to me, can you take over that role? And now

[29:00] you're doing twice the work for maybe 10 or 20% more. How you know, how much of this is on the organization to fix versus the person? Yeah, I will say burnout is definitely an organizational issue with a caveat that an organization can help you become more efficient, change processes. They can model the best behavior. They're not willing to take accountability or for your own personal resilience and set some boundaries,

[29:32] really have some good personal policies of, you know, I'm going to shut my work off at a certain time, I am going to get eight hours of sleep, sleep's one of the best things you can do. The easiest thing to do is to just get more sleep. And so it is definitely on the organization to help with look at any if inefficient processes have a stop doing list, like, do we still need this report that no one's looking at what are the things that are slowing down our work, but we also have to have personal accountability, or we're not going to

[30:03] really, you know, start to feel better and find that personal fulfillment and joy in our work. Yeah. So do do organizations typically hire you or is it individuals? I work with both, you know, I've developed a lot of well being programs, anything from six month programs to doing group coaching, but I also do individual so both. So let's shift to the hot topic of the day emotional intelligence. So people like Jamie Dimon and all kinds of folks are

[30:33] talking about EQ and how that's the big differentiator between AI and humans, right? So tell us what is the definition of emotional intelligence? What does that mean? Yes, emotional intelligence, I guess the descriptor word is it's a set of emotional and social skills. It helps us perceive and express ourselves better. It helps us with relationships, it helps us cope with challenges. And it's an overall, it can really help your overall well

[31:04] being helps handling stress. I like to say the easiest way to describe it for me is you if you learn about your emotions, you become a strategic responder, instead of reacting to your emotions. Emotional intelligence is just really identifying how your emotions are impacting you and then coming up with some strategies to effectively use those emotions to help facilitate your performance instead of impair your performance. So tell me paint the picture for me, give me an example, what it looks like to be a strategic

[31:35] responder versus a reactor. Yeah, okay. So let's say it's Tuesday morning and you've been up all night with a sick child, you're running late. You dropping kids off at school and one of them's having a meltdown. And you know you have this very important meeting when you get to work. So you walk into the meeting five minutes late. Your team is kind of discussing something and you really want to jump in and say what you want to think, but you just got there so you missed out. Someone with emotional intelligence is going to get into that. Well, before they get into the meeting, they're

[32:05] going to take a deep breath and pause and kind of ask themselves, what do I want out of this meeting? Get themselves in the right space, walk in, they're going to see what's going on, see what's going on since they came in a little bit late. And they're going to be able to pause and say the right thing at the right time. They're going to ask the good questions. They're not just going to react and come in and let their morning and all those emotions that have fueled their

[32:36] morning so far, they're going to be able to come in and really respond effectively. Now talk to us about what do most of us do as a reactor? What does a reactor do? Well, I can tell, I can use myself as an example. So I use, on the EQ assessment that I use, my strengths are emotional, self-awareness, emotional expression, and assertiveness. And like going back to what I said about my dad, I tend to talk before I think sometimes. The areas I struggle in is impulse control and

[33:06] reality testing. So sometimes I'll get super excited about something and I'll barge into my leader's office and, oh, I got this idea. And they're just sitting and reflecting. And so I'm not being effective or somebody might say something in a meeting. And for me, I want to quickly react and answer or speak up someone with emotional intelligence is going to sit back and be more receptive, listen to others, ask more questions. And so you become a strategic reactor instead of just flying

[33:42] and regretting what you've said. Yeah. Easier said than done, right? Yeah, still learning. A learned behavior. So you're certified in EQ-i 2.0. That sounds, that's a, yeah. What does that mean? It's got some different composites and sub skills. What is that? What is that stuff? Yeah, it's an assessment by the Multi-Health Systems. It's one of the first EQ assessments that was based, the scientific assessment that was out there. I have to go through a regular certification to administer it, but it has

[34:13] five composite. And to be honest, it was seemed a little overwhelming when I first learned about it. Yeah, but it gets very granular so you know where you can improve. So the first one is self perception. That's all about your inner self, you know, your self regard, your goal setting, your emotional self-awareness. The second sub skill is emotional expression. So how do you express yourself emotionally, verbally and non-verbally, assertiveness, and then independence. And then the third scale is interpersonal. So we

[34:43] look at interpersonal relationships. Do you have relationships that are built on trust, empathy, and social responsibility. Okay. And then the fourth one is decision making. And this is where I was talking about impulse control. Yeah. We talk about problem solving and reality testing, looking at things from an unbiased standpoint. And then the last one is stress tolerance. Okay. And that has flexibility. How flexible are you when things get thrown at you? Do you have good stress coping

[35:14] mechanisms, stress tolerance, and then optimism. So those 15 areas, but what I love about it is it's going to give you it's instead of just giving you, you know, work on your emotional self-awareness, it's going to pinpoint where in that area you need to focus and you can come up with a few strategies. So what's EQ versus IQ? So there, you know, a lot of people, when I was growing up, it was like, how smart are you? Are you a good test taker? And no one really talked about EQ. And

[35:46] now as I get older, I hear like the C students run the world, they're the ones owning the businesses and they hire the A students for them. Right. Right. IQ has definitely gone down in reverence, it seems like in our societies. Tell me like EQ versus IQ, what's the difference and you know, what can be changed? Yeah. So IQ is our intellectual quotient and that's usually fixed between 17 and 20. And so we're not going to change that a lot as we grow as an adult. EQ, your emotional

[36:16] quotient can be developed, they say all the way up until your retirement years. And so that's the big difference is your IQ is fixed, your EQ is going to show you how do you show up in a meeting and how do you respond effectively. It's really going to help you manage your thoughts and emotions so that you're more effective. And there are a lot of studies that you know, people that maybe have a higher IQ, they're not as effective as people that have a higher EQ. Yeah. And they say

[36:46] one study that I recently read is that employees that work for a leader that has a higher IQ are 400% less likely to leave their role. And so if you have turnover and workforce issues that we have today, if you really develop your EQ as a leader, you're going to be able to hang on to your employees because you are building better relationships, you're learning how to be assertive instead of aggressive, you're not impulsive or fly off the handle. And so it's those type of skills that help

[37:17] us become more effective. So would you rate EQ over IQ for success? Is there evidence that supports that? There is more and evidence that says, you know, I've had people say, well, what is success? So true kind of got to define success, but you will see that EQ by far, there's so much research out there that EQ is going to help you more because it's helping you connect humans, helping you relate to people. And if you think about the diversity in the workplace and all of the different elements of working with

[37:48] a team, your EQ is going to help you, I believe, be more effective as a leader. It used to, it feels like it used to be called self-awareness or maybe like a, that's a blanket term, but like in the back in that maybe early 2000s, it was like, oh, there's totally unaware, right? Do you feel like is that sort of a fair statement? Emotional self-awareness is kind of the buzzword, but that's one element of EQ. Got it. As I mentioned, that's in the self-perception category. So that's that you're aware of your

[38:18] emotions and how they come across to others. Yeah. And you're able to read the room, but then there's all these other elements with EQ that also can make you help you be more effective. What's the one that most of us get wrong or that we're, that we, like if you were to say, like, what's the one that skill that many people are not good at? Oh, you know, it really varies. Okay. I do feel that emotional self, once you become aware of your emotions and the triggers, what causes you to maybe react a certain way,

[38:49] you're going to be able to be more effective. But if the areas that by industry, there's interesting, it's interesting. Sure, I wouldn't get that. Yeah. So in healthcare, people are very empathetic. So empathy is high on the charts. One of the things that you find is people that have really high empathy, and if they have a lower self regard, they're more susceptible to burnout because they give, give, give, and they don't have any self compassion left for their bucket. So EQ really varies by industry.

[39:19] Another one in healthcare is most people in healthcare are really good at problem solving, because that's what they do all day. So other industries, it's going to be different. I will say, people like myself that I've had to work on impulse control, impulse control is something that we all need to regulate a lot. They also say for effective leadership, leaders that are able to solve problems and handle stress have good stress tolerance. So they're able to

[39:49] they're aware of their emotions and how to handle stress that are going to be the most effective leaders. So you're not ignoring your stress, but like, yeah, that stress tolerance one is one that I think I probably misinterpret a lot because I feel like, you know, we all have, I always try to in my, in my head, say, like, everybody's got big problems. Everybody's got stuff they're carrying, suck it up and show up. Right. And I don't know that that's, there's like a little bit of that's probably good, probably not all of it. Right, right. Stress tolerance is good if you know, you know, if you

[40:21] know where the stress is coming from. So again, it ties to emotional self-awareness. In the EQ assessment, what I look at a lot is not necessarily your numbers, but where are you out of balance? So if your emotional self-awareness is low and your stress tolerance is high, you may just power through. You're not really saying, okay, I'm really I need to deal with this frustration. I need to come up with some really you're just I'm going to power through. The other thing is high performers again, may have good they may have high stress tolerance, but their team may not have the same stress tolerance. And so they may, maybe

[40:54] they're not handling their team well, maybe they have low interpersonal relationships, high stress tolerance, it's like, well, is there a reason for that? You know, let's talk a little bit more about that. Maybe your team is not keeping up with your, you know, your pace, or do you need to slow down and ask more questions, those sorts of things. Yeah, I never thought about that. But you might be expecting your team to do the same thing you're doing. Yeah. And they are not their abilities may be different. Yeah, that's a good one. What's the thing? What's the skill that when people learn it, I know that there's a they're

[41:25] all probably important, but in your experience, when people start to understand and practice and get better at a skill that it makes a huge difference for them. I would probably say reality testing. And so reality is that you look at things in an unbiased manner. So we're really quick sometimes to think about, oh, that person did this, you know, for this reason, I always say to people, stop and ask, could the opposite be true. And so you're, if you approach it with, you know, positive intent,

[41:55] and you really think about the reality, like what's going on, looking at the facts. So if you think of crucial conversations, the best thing to do is focus on the facts, not necessarily the person. So many of the skills are really important. But I think if you can kind of master reality testing and really get good at being objective, instead of telling yourself stories that can be really effective. So you mentioned crucial conversations, there's like StrengthsFinder, there's DiSC, there's the

[42:26] Enneagram is like a big thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't understand all of that. There's MBTI that Myers-Briggs, right? There's EQ. It feels like a lot of stuff. Yeah. And it's just like, how do I, I just want to show up for my people. What do you think? No, there is a lot. So I'm really curious as you think about that, especially in learning development, you've seen all the trends and the phases. And I felt like when we did the, many years ago, I remember doing MBTI, it was like all about me and

[42:57] now I'm this, right? Or even Enneagram, I'm an Enneagram, whatever. Right? Like, well, what is that? How does that help you get through the world? How does being good about understanding burnout and EQ and being good? How do you know what tool to pull out when? And how do you just sort of like, just get the work done? Yeah. Help me understand that. Yeah. As a non learning and development person. Right. It feels like a lot. I do. I mean, I love DiSC. I do a lot of DiSC assessments with teams, crucial conversations, and you're right, there's there's so much. I

[43:28] think one of the things and I think I'm I love EQ, I'm very passionate about it. One of the things that I think is a little different than DiSC and like an EQ or Myers-Briggs and EQ is they're very descriptive of who you are. Like, you know, I know I'm fast paced, I know that I'm very much interpersonal, I'm an ID on the DiSC. EQ is very prescriptive. It's going to say, okay, Marla, these are your areas where you're good with your emotional intelligence. And these are areas where you

[43:59] really tend to struggle. And it's going to show you how to balance those out. But at the end, it's not a blood test. And so it is all of these are tools in your toolbox. I think having them is great, but then working with somebody to strategically say, okay, what what should I be focusing on and then not try to focus on too many things at once. I'm a big believer on okay, let's let's look at one thing and let's work on this for three months and see how it's is it helping you perform? Or did

[44:30] you not see a change? Well, then let's let's think of something else. And let's think about what what's going to help you what's going to serve you. So if I were to make it real, like let's say I have a team, a team. And there's obviously some some dysfunction there. There's a couple of team members that are that don't like each other. And they do like the caddy thing in the email where they go back and forth. And it's never like overt, but everybody feels it. Everybody sees it there. And they don't work well together. It's starting to affect our overall team performance. And people are starting to

[45:02] like find ways around working around these people just hypothetical. I have a leader who likes to just get it out of the like I will hit it right in the forehead and say like, OK, you guys need to figure it like, you know, we'll go after it. You guys need to figure this out. Bring the whole team together. What would you say is from a crucial conversations from an EQ perspective, if I bring the team together and say, OK, we're having issues, everybody's in the meeting and we need to be, you know, we need to figure this out. You

[45:33] know, we're all going to need to develop some team norms. What are we going to like? This is how we're going to interact. We get it all written down and everybody goes along their way. What did I do wrong? Honestly, I think the thing that we do wrong a lot as leaders is we and I for lack of better words, I call it a group spank. Yeah, we bring the whole group together and it's two people. Yeah. So getting those two people to work together and figuring it out. I think we also tiptoe around things sometimes. It's like, well, but I don't want that that they may leave

[46:03] if I address it. Well, sometimes I heard this from training I went to. Sometimes it is good to release the toxic ones back into our community. And so we have to we have to make sure we're addressing the right issues. And so team building, I think, is so effective. Yeah. But you have to kind of set some goals of what what do we want to get out of this team building? And I think our leaders sometimes get it wrong is let's they think that by bringing everybody together, it's going to fix it and it's not going to fix it if it's two people. Yeah. So I always try to start

[46:35] with a needs assessment like what's really going on and let's address what what's happening there first. Yeah. What if I said if I'm the leader and I say, okay, I'm gonna pull the two of you together. You guys have to work this out. You guys have to figure this out and you're on your own. I'm going to come back and check in in a month. What would what's wrong with that approach? Because I this has happened. These are both real scenarios that I've encountered in my in my career. Yeah, I think part of that I think it's good for them to talk. I also think it's good for you to talk separately with the leader and

[47:06] have, you know, a growth plan for both of them so that you can check in. Yeah. So I think it's it's again, it's the follow up. I always feel like training is not a one time event. If we don't follow up and read, I mean, you can go to any kind of training and be, I'm so excited, or you can bring your two people together think it's going to be fixed. But if they walk away and no one ever follows up. So as a leader, it's very important to follow up, continue to coach them. Say, okay, you know, what's okay, you guys met, what's going on, and it's

[47:36] still not going well, coach them, help them learn how to have conversations with each other. Lots of people are not equipped to learn how or understand how to have a good crucial conversation. And they don't realize that if they have that, their relationship might grow with that person, right? As a leader, you need to coach your team as well Yeah. So can someone have high EQ and still get burnt out? 100%. Okay. Yeah. Again, like I said, EQ is not just going to fix everything.

[48:08] Because burnout is not just a one, you know, one thing, it's multifaceted, it comes from the culture of, you know, the organization you work in, it comes from efficiency of practice if you're not, you know, being efficient. But then you also, it does help to have high EQ, there's a correlation with high EQ and less burnout, but you still can get burned out if you have high EQ, but you're probably less apt to you're going to recognize it sooner. So burnouts on a

[48:41] continuum. So somebody with high EQ is probably going to say, okay, I know that I'm not reacting appropriately, they're going to seek out help. So but you can because EQ again, is a snapshot in time when you know, there's different things going on in your life, you just you're going to recognize it sooner, I'm sure. So major corporations, Jamie Dimon, Satya Nadella of Microsoft are telling all of graduates, in fact, multiple times in this last year to develop your EQ, build your EQ Satya said, I think IQ

[49:11] without EQ is a waste. Why do you think this is getting so much spotlight right now? Well, I think it is because of, you know, if you think of AI, EQ is the human connection element, and we can become more efficient with AI. And we also, you know, I think large CEO, we have to think about the best way to do our work. And so CEOs, they are responsible for making sure they're, you know, having the best resources,

[49:43] making sure that they're sustaining profitability. And the AI is going to help with some of those things. But the human element is going to be so important in any industry, not just in, you know, healthcare and the others, being able to connect with people, that's going to give you kind of a, as an employee, that's going to be an asset that you can have that others may not have if you don't develop it. So there's some academics that are feel like EQ is the newest trend. What would you say to them?

[50:15] Well, it's been around since the 1900s. I think that I kind of, the last five or 10 years, I've gotten really excited about EQ. But if you look at the how far it dates back, it's from the 1900s. And so in a kind of took had another kind of wave in 1995, Daniel Goleman wrote a book. So I it's not new, I think it's people are talking more about it, because they're seeing that, you know, if you develop your EQ, it's more

[50:45] effective. And then also with the technology, the rapid change in our industries, I think emotional intelligence is, is completely different. It is really you personally, how are you showing up? How are you letting your emotions impair or facilitate your emotions? Emotions aren't, I like to say they're not good or bad. Anger is probably not a powerful emotion. But if it's anger, because something's being, you know, is unethical, or, you know, it's, you're fighting for justice. So it's

[51:18] about recognizing our emotions, and then labeling them and then processing them in an effective way. So it's not new. And we're all human, we're wired a certain way. God made us with emotions are not going away. So I guess that would be my answer. Yeah, there's a new thing too with AI, a new phenomenon called AI brain fry. So and I mean, so I work with AI agents all day. Right. I do feel like because

[51:48] you can get in these little spirals, these little loops, just like any type of work, I suppose, but you start following trails, you got this tool, not tool, and pretty soon as hours are going by, right? Is that a new kind of burnout? Or do you think it's the same burnout with a different name? It's, I think it's probably the same burnout with a different name. It's, I mean, we call it cognitive overload, sometimes in healthcare. Yeah, you go from one task to one task, you see patient documentation, and if you don't take a break, and just have that

[52:19] downtime with your brain, and, again, it doesn't need to be a long break, they're talking micro breaks, deep breathing, you know, go get some sunlight for two to three minutes. But we have to shut off our brain. I think it was Anne Lamott that said, you know, everything works if you unplug it for a while. So it's the same thing with our brains. And I think that's what it is so easy because of the way things are, you know, our technology is advancing so quickly. So cognitive overload, I think that probably is a

[52:50] analogy just because it is like lots of tools, lots of information, lots of decisions really quickly and trying to verify if all of that is correct. It's like lots of screens, just like you walk into an ER, and there's screens for everything trying to quickly discern what's important and what isn't is very, very overloading. So when you think about, especially now, as we talk about AI, the management level has collapsed. You know, companies are putting more and more on whoever's left now has 12 reports. We used to have

[53:22] three, right? So you're doing many, many more people's work and jobs. What happens to for those people that are in those seats? What would you what advice would you give them if you're like one of the survivors who's left from a recent rift, and now you're doing the job of multiple people? I would say that to really look at your workload and try to strategically look at what you you know, what are your goals, but then figure out how can you delegate and how can you set a plan

[53:54] that's focused? We often have way too much on our plans. I'm really big into 90 day plans. I had a leader that introduced me to that years ago. And so build build 90 day plans and be focused, but then look at your teams, where their strengths, where you know, are you delegating? And then again, having a stop doing list, there are so many things in businesses that we just continually do over and over and over. And we don't really think about, okay, does this need to be done? Is it

[54:25] being done effectively? So you don't maybe need to cut everything out. But should we look at doing it differently? And if you think about the generations and the workforce, it's so I mean, I can say because I'm old. But we have this younger generation coming up, they're so bright, they want to grow, they want to develop and so utilize your team. Delegating is definitely not dumping its development. And your team is going to be the ones that come up with the good ideas. So I think we get this mentality. It's oh, it's all dumped on us. But

[54:56] again, step back, have that 30,000 foot view and say, What, what do I need to do differently? Do you you've mentioned earlier that you took a break and you said that being a mom was the hardest job? Yes. Do you think moms get burnt out? Yes, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think they do. Because if you think about it's, it's kind of like healthcare where you're talking about a life, and it's your life, you know, it's your kids. And so it is hard

[55:26] to not take care, you know, take time for yourself. It's hard to say, okay, I'm mom's gonna step away for half an hour and go for a run. I see this when I do coaching, just with people that are burned out that aren't stay at home moms, but I see it, you know, I'd see it with stay at home moms, too, we have to be able to disconnect from, you know, our kids, because then we're going to come back and we're going to be refreshed, we're going to be, you know, better parents. So I say there's so much there's distracted driving, there's distracted parenting, there's distracted healthcare, because we're just

[55:56] today and just stepping away. And I really think we really need to think about, you know, how are our parenting and definitely staying home with kids can be really hard. And so not feeling bad about stepping away and taking care of yourself. Yeah. What are the so if you were to get like, let's say there's a some some systems that you were to put in place, what are some systems that you have seen put in place because I am guilty of this, I've got like, you know, different clients, and I'm trying to put out content, and

[56:27] I'm trying to build stuff and do this website, and then run my kid to school. And what am I making for dinner tonight? That's right. I got a roast somewhere, hopefully it hasn't expired. What do I have potatoes? I don't know. And then the phone rings, and then somebody shows up to fix the washing machine. And then I'm back to my computer again, you know, and that's like that all day long. What would you say to to me? Help me out here, Marla. But there's I know, I'm not the only one, right? Right. From a systems perspective, what little systems do you like?

[56:59] What are two or three things that you would say, like, think about this? Yeah. Well, I think it's, it's hard for people that work from home, especially because your home and your office are the same. And one of the systems that has worked for people that work outside of the home is what is your work life transition. So when you're leaving work, and you're coming home, so some, you know, some strategies I've heard is take my badge off. Yeah, when I get home, I'm going to go into mom mode. You know, I'm gonna,

[57:29] that's my, you know, signal. Yeah, when I get into the garage, but when you're working from home, you have to have those same strategies of okay, I'm shutting my office door. I'm done. I'm, you know, I'm done for the day, and be good with that and then find people to support you, whether that's your spouse or partner or somebody to support you in those efforts. So that's one thing. And I think just having this, I heard this from actually another physician that really has strived in well being and really made some good

[58:01] strides in their own personal well being is you have to have a nobody. And it's someone that's going to tell you that you're over committed, you know, and they're going to hold your hand down when you volunteer to, you know, do this again, I'm going to take on this another project, I'm going to, and so find someone who's going to be your support mechanism. And, and then the last thing I would say is, I think it's Lou Holtz, use the WIN, what's important now. So okay, you know, when it's seven o'clock at night, and your

[58:32] brain is like, I want to go make some content, I want to do this, I want to do that is what's important right now, it's important to I want to spend time with my kids, I want to get my kids to bed, because everybody's wired differently. Some people can work 60, 70 hours a week and be fine and not have burnout, where other people are going to get burned out sooner. So you have to have some things that are going to work for you. Yeah, but you also need a support mechanism or support system. So if someone that's listening to this is running a small team, a clinic, family business,

[59:02] what's the first thing that you would want them to look at? Now, you're going to use that framework, what's important now? What is something that you would want them to examine? From a burnout perspective? Yeah, if they're like listening, and they're like, this is interesting, I want to learn more, I wonder if my team I want to do a gut check on my team, what is something that you would want them to to look at? Yeah, I think what I want them to look at or do would be to intentionally do some rounding and check in on your team. And really, really make sure they're

[59:34] doing okay. And then kind of assess that I'd also if you're a leader, and you have a small team, I'd want you to look at yourself. What are you doing? How are you modeling well being? How are you showing up for work? And, you know, there again, you can really have your team identify what what are our top five biggest obstacles as a team? Yeah, so start small and identify a couple areas that you want to look at and improve and

[1:00:04] then kind of build from there. So as you think about evolve, and your consulting work, what are the kinds of companies that you work a lot with that you want to work more with? Where do you see where do you see your work evolving over the next few years? Yeah, I'd really want to work with any team individual to that is interested in really working with their teams on personal resilience, building, building that well being program. Also, if you have, you know, a team that

[1:00:35] maybe is struggling with communication, really leaders that need to grow and develop an EQ, emotional intelligence, I do a lot of emotional intelligence as a group, you can put your group through emotional intelligence training, and then do individual coaching, and set some goals. So I'm hoping to work more with organizations that really want to focus in on emotional intelligence. And then coaching individually, I love to coach, I love to work with people individually that have specific areas they want

[1:01:06] to focus on, whether it be they want to grow as a leader, they want to, you know, become better at delegating, they want to grow their emotional intelligence. So I'd say those would be the key areas. That's amazing. So thank you so much. This is, it's been a good therapy session for me too, therapy, coaching, whatever you want to call it, because it's, I've learned a lot. So if you are interested in connecting with Marla, tell us how do we get ahold of you? How do we find you? Yeah, my website is EvolveConsultingSD.com.

[1:01:38] And then I also have, I'm on LinkedIn. So you can check, check out my pages there. Absolutely. So if you're watching on YouTube, we'll put a link to Marla Dziedzic and her LinkedIn as well as her website, all in the show notes, description and find ways to connect with Marla there. Thank you again for being on the show. This has been great. And if you are curious about how to increase your EQ or your team's EQ,

[1:02:08] make sure to connect with Marla by clicking on those links. All right. Thank you, Melissa. Thanks for being on the show. All right. That's our show for today. If someone came to mind while you were listening, please send it to them. You never know when a little piece of information might change someone's life. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next one as well. I'm Melissa Goodwin. Thank you so much for listening. And for now, the line is open.